Sonja Crystal Williams: 0:05

Hi everybody, Welcome to today’s episode of 10 Minute Marketing. I’m your host, Sona Crystal Williams. Well, joining me. Today. I have Diane Lam, and Diane is a systems and scaling strategist who works a lot with online coaches, consultants, done-for-you service providers, and she specializes in helping them scale faster so that they have the freedom and flexibility to really do what they love in their business and outside of it. Diane, thank you so much for being here. Oh my God, I’m so happy to be here.

Diane Lam: 0:40

I’m super excited to just have this chat with you and be able to share some things that might help people be able to grow and scale their businesses faster.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 0:47

Yes. So I mean, for a lot of businesses, this is the question yeah, how do I get to a space where I’m ready to scale? And I wanted you to come here today because I think you do something very special and very unique that a lot of people will overlook, which is how do we, before we get to scale, how do we get the systems down? So I want to ask you to describe when the word systems is used. That could mean a lot of things to many people. What does it mean when you’re helping businesses with their systems?

Diane Lam: 1:17

Yeah, this is such a good question because I feel like there is a lot of mis– not maybe misinformation, but lack of context around systems in the online space.

Diane Lam: 1:26

So in systems right now, we talk about them a lot in terms of like one piece, like it’s an SOP, or it’s a technology, like a CRM or convert kit or a platform of some sort, or maybe it’s just like oh, you need a system, higher VA or OBM. Right, all components of your systems are all technically right, but your system, the one that actually gives you the freedom and flexibility that I think most of us really crave, is all of those things. It’s the combination of the process. It’s a combination of the technology that you use to make that process smooth and organized, and the automations that streamline it, help it go faster, and the team members to fill in the gaps, because you cannot automate everything right. So when we’re talking about systems, at least in my world, we’re talking about the combination of all of those things, customized to your business, so that you actually get the freedom and flexibility that you want, in whatever shape and form it takes.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 2:21

Wow, no, that’s, that’s huge. So give me a picture. You come in and you’re helping who. Who is the person that you’re typically speaking to when it’s time to do like a systems overhaul?

Diane Lam: 2:31

Yeah, so I usually am working with coaches who are solo, who’ve grown really fast. Maybe they have a skeleton team or one VA or an OBM with them. I’m working with done-for-you service providers like marketing strategists, website designers, brand strategists, who are also kind of in that same boat, structurally. They’re like well, I’ve had VAs or contractors, I have an OBM, but nothing is quite gelling. It doesn’t feel easier in the business. I recorded 1,000 Loom videos and it’s not easier. Nothing is happening. So those are usually the people who are coming to me.

Diane Lam: 3:04

I work a lot with, like small agency owners who are trying to build their teams and their agency models and they’re like uh, I hired all the people but like, I’m still the, I’m still the manager of everything, I’m the bottleneck for everything. Right, and that’s really where we’re starting the process of your systems, because chances are, you probably have done a few things to put them in place, but you’re probably missing some of the components that I talk about or they are not aligned with each other. It’s like I liken it to like baking a cake right, you want to moisturize, you got to have the right ingredients. You want to have a flourless cake versus, like, a souffle style cake. You need different things to achieve that outcome, and the same is with your business and your systems. You need different sets of systems. You need different sets of technology and automations, in varying amounts, to get the outcomes that you want, to run the business the way that you want.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 3:52

Got it, got it, so gosh. This leads into like so many directions, because the questions are just like oh my gosh, what do you do here and what do you do there? In this scenario, in that scenario, let’s start out with just like one of the things I know you specialize in. When I was peeking around your website and just kind of from our past conversations, as you come in and do a systems assessment, when you peek back behind the curtain, right and kind of like the Wizard of Oz, right, there’s the wizard back there controlling everything which is what’s kind of happening with these systems and, to your point, sometimes they gel and sometimes they don’t.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 4:28

And I’ve come across a lot of business owners who say exactly what you said. I hired a lot of people, but they are still kind of CEO slash, coo, managing a lot of different parts. When you peek behind the curtain, what is it through your eyes that you see? Is it they’re using too many different types of software? Is it something in the execution that their people should be doing Like? What does that look like to you?

Diane Lam: 4:56

I’d say, like a majority of the time there is a lack of process, of actual results driven process, right. So a lot of times they’ve leaned on oh well, if I just get the right CRM or if I get the right email marketing platform that will do everything. So they lean heavily on the technology component without really having a lot of clarity as to like well, how do I actually want to do my marketing?

Sonja Crystal Williams: 5:20

so that.

Diane Lam: 5:20

I can pick the software that will support that process. Or they’ve gone on the other side of things, like, oh, I hired all the people, I hired a social media manager, I hired a you know, a content writer, I hired someone to do my graphics, a VA to do the posting, all those things. But again, their process is lacking, right? There isn’t a lot of clarity in terms of, like, well, are you getting the results that you want? Are you marketing the way that you want? Are you marketing the way that you want? Are you or are you just? Did you just record a loom video and recreate a process that keeps you doing the marketing, feeding the machine constantly, right?

Diane Lam: 5:56

So a lot of times, that’s what I see as the primary drivers that, like you, lean too heavily into a few different areas, and a lot of times, the missing piece is actually the clear process that gives you the results that you want, right? I don’t think a lot of people talk about systems in this way. When I’m thinking about a system, I was like it needs to give me a good result, I cannot like what am I doing now and just write down the steps, because that’s not actually be how I want to work If I’m doing all the marketing. I don’t want to do that Like document a system that then recreates me doing all the marketing myself. So really looking at it from the end point of like, is this actually getting me the result that I want? And then I get the tech that’s actually going to serve me the best and then I can pick the VAs or the automations or whatever it is, and that’s usually the missing component is that we don’t have enough process or the process isn’t giving us the result that we want.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 6:43

Okay, one of the other things you brought up was automation, and then automation can go in a few different directions, because there’s software automation and nowadays, with nearly any tool that even does automation, there’s an AI component. Nowadays, like, just what are your thoughts around why, like, automation alone does or doesn’t do it for businesses that want to have strong systems in place?

Diane Lam: 7:10

I will say that automation is really powerful to a certain extent, but to automate fully is impossible, right? Like, even big businesses like Facebook that has billions of dollars to spend on technology, cannot automate fully. And it’s just like, well, a lot of the tools that we’re buying, too like, we have to use out of the box. We’re not app developers. I’m not going to create my own bot to like do the thing exactly how I want it to be automated. So we’re also limited by what automations are available in the tools that we’re using, right Like, I sign up for ActiveCampaign, I’m restricted to the automation that ActiveCampaign has allowed me to use within them, right? So I think that there is a lot of power in automation. We have to know that automation is literally for things that can be standardized, that are repeated over and over again, and there are not any changes.

Diane Lam: 7:57

The second that you start to change or customize things, your automation capability starts to degrade. Yeah, you can customize a few things within certain bounds, but the more custom it is, the less likely that you’re going to be able to automate it, right? So that’s just something to really keep in mind. And like, the more that you want to change or like, rapidly iterate. You know, or, like I have, I’ve seen someone who had like a massive it was like a 60 step zap where, like this happens, or this happens when you have those many decision-making levels.

Diane Lam: 8:22

It’s really hard to automate those kinds of things too because, yeah, the tools get confused when you’re like, okay, I want you to want to fire in this scenario and this scenario, but what about this scenario when, like, a client responds to an email that we then sent them, the automation doesn’t look for that email or that maybe they sent you. Maybe you have a sales automation right, like, oh, I’m following up, following up, following up on a proposal, but then, like that client replied and said I’m going on vacation for two weeks, like I’ll get back to you, then the automation doesn’t know to look for that. So that’s where you start to see breakdowns in automation, especially when they get really long and complex or when they have a lot of customization in them. So, yes, you can do a lot with automation to take care of some of those repetitive day-to-day tasks that maybe fall through the cracks a little bit, but I wouldn’t say that it’s something that will like revolutionize your business, because a lot of stuff you just cannot automate.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 9:14

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, and so that could be for a business or a coach who is already in a place where they have some systems in place. It’s keeping that in mind right, that the automation is there and it can support you, but it’s not going to do everything for you. It doesn’t replace human interaction. So, on the human side, who would be or and it could be person and or people? But what kind of role steps in?

Sonja Crystal Williams: 9:46

So let’s say I am a coach or consultant, I have built this amazing course. Let’s just say that I’m selling and I have some systems in place that help get people through my funnel. They buy the course and then they start getting emails and then maybe they’re getting some upsells and things like that. And it has become overwhelming for me when I start to turn it over, who am I looking for to turn this job? And that’s like one piece, one of the systems, right, but there might be many others behind the scenes. The CRM system Right, but there might be many others behind the scenes. The CRM system, those types of things you mentioned.

Diane Lam: 10:31

Who do I turn that over to? Or and or people and or person. I think in this particular scenario I would probably look for like a tech VA. Or you could like titles. Ok, honestly, like let’s just take a step back. Like titles mean nothing in the online space. Anyone can call themselves anything they want. It’s more important that you really look at what services they’re offering to make sure they’re a match for what you need.

Diane Lam: 10:49

So the most like general thing I would look for is like a tech VA, because if you have a funnel based system right, like you’re doing, you’re doing the course. It’s a digital product. You have the funnel set up. Maybe you have multiple funnels set up and like if you have upsells, downsells, tripwires, things like that, the funnel has gotten very complex. You need someone who can really manage the technology side of those things.

Diane Lam: 11:12

I think the biggest part about technology and automation that people also kind of forget is like it requires maintenance, like yes, you can set it and forget it, but like softwares update themselves and when those things update, sometimes they get broken. When your offer changes, you need to make those updates across the board and you need to know where specifically to make those updates. So I would say they probably need someone who is a tech focused, either virtual assistant they might even call themselves an OBM someone who has a very tech focused background in the softwares that you’re using in your funnel, because not all tech VAs, again, are created equal. Some of them focus on particular software. So if you hire a tech VA that specializes in like go high level but you’re using like active campaign, that’s not going to work either, right.

Diane Lam: 11:54

So you find someone who’s really specific to the technology that you’re using and in this case I’d probably say that they might want to consider as a second layer someone who can support them in terms of the writing elements, because in a funnel like this, in a digital product, a lot of it comes down to your words and your messaging and the content that’s being distributed within the funnel Like that’s, 50% of your funnel is the actual words that are being sent out. So if those pieces are not really really strong or something that you don’t want to continuously create or don’t have the bandwidth to create which I see with a lot of business owners, that’s. The next step is like we need someone to manage the tech. We need someone to manage the content that are in the messaging that is going out in that funnel as well, to continuously feed it and get you out of the day to day.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 12:37

That’s huge Gosh. You hit on so many great points. So another thing too you’ve used some terms of different types of tools that people can use, and I want to break some of those down like as options, because some people know what these tools are and some people are like what is that? Or I heard of it. I’m going to raise my hand on one of them, Dubsado. I have no idea what Dubsado really is or what it does, but I hear a lot about that one. I think there’s another one, Boxer, or something that might start with a V. You brought up ActiveCampaign. Help everyone understand, like are these a one size fit all type of tool that’s helping you manage different pieces of those systems, or just what are some of these tools that people have access to check out?

Diane Lam: 13:26

Yeah, okay, so let’s start with some of the things that you mentioned. Right? So Dubsado I think they’ve shifted a little bit of how they market themselves. They used to call themselves a CRM. They’re not really a CRM in a traditional sense. Right? So Dubsado is a business management tool. It lets you do like your very light lead tracking through, like your sales process. It lets you do proposal in contracts, like you know your outbound sales stuff. Like once you’ve gotten somebody on a sales call they’ve said, yes, you need to do, like a contract, some sort of proposal. You can do that and then you can get it very seamlessly to invoice, right, like that’s really the power that it has. It has some other features around, like a client portal and things like, but they’re all. I don’t think that they’re very usable when we think about, like, what is a client portal? How is a client going to interact with it? For the most part, the power is really in that contract proposal, invoice, streamlining, setup, right.

Diane Lam: 14:20

Like so if you were to sell the same products, the same packages, and it doesn’t change a lot, once you start to vary a lot of stuff, the Dubsado starts to break down a little bit. Their automation capabilities are not built for that. So if you are looking to really streamline your sales process, I’d say Dubsado is a good business management tool for that and it really depends on, like, what you’re selling. So if you don’t sell that kind of thing, you probably, if you sell digital products and courses, you don’t need Zubsado. But if you do contracts and proposals and things like that, zubsado is a good tool for that.

Diane Lam: 14:51

Voxer is a communication tool. It’s like a walkie talkie. So if I want to like chat back and forth with you and send some voice notes back and forth, voxer is a good tool for that. I will say the limitations are that it gets really messy. If you have more than one person in a chat with you or you want to organize your conversation, it’s very, very hard to do that Like I would not do it in Voxer. I do not recommend for like a big group chat where you actually like want to either save or remember to go back to something, or you want to talk about specific topics and be able to organize it.

Diane Lam: 15:25

Not great, but I think you want to have a conversation back forth, like consistently, like with a lot of one-on-one coaches, like they love using that, or if you’re working directly with a client as a consultant, and they just want to be able to ask you questions and you respond perfect. But anything bigger than that I think it’s really it gets very messy very quickly. So those are kind of the first tools that you, uh, that you, you, you put out there to ask questions around Um. And then I know I’ve mentioned some different variations of tools through this conversation as well and I will say that I actually don’t care about the software. Like I don’t care what tool you use.

Diane Lam: 16:00

Um, it could be high tech or low tech, there’s a lot of options out there and, um, some of the things that I mentioned are like it really ties back to your process. What are you actually trying to do? What are you trying to achieve? Right, because that will help you pick the tech. So that’s why I’m always very process driven process first before anything, because I don’t know what I’m doing, it’s really hard for me to pick the tech that’s going to help me stay organized and work in that process and if I don’t have the tech, I also can’t automate right. So they’re all kind of tied together and they flow into each other and it really depends what you are doing within your business what technology is fit for you, but I will say that there’s probably some pretty core tech that I’ll say pretty much every online business needs. You generally will need some sort of project and task management tool to keep track of all of your work. Like I was literally on the phone with someone earlier this week and they like showed me their pile of sticky notes and then they like knocked over a glass of water. Well, that’s exactly why it needs to be somewhere else. It puts you up. If you want to delegate and work with virtual assistants or anything like that, then it’s somewhere where they could actually have access to it as well. Cloud storage is also another piece where, like well, if you’re creating materials for clients, like deliverables, that has to go somewhere and it can’t just all go to your downloads folder, so it’s like where you’re like searching around for it, so putting it somewhere where it can be organized per client and and like you can create templates, and things like that are going to be really important, like literally every business.

Diane Lam: 17:29

Do that, um, and I will say also email marketing software.

Diane Lam: 17:32

Um, because, like, yes, I personally believe in email marketing, but also, like, it’s probably like fact-based, like statistics wise, one of the places that people are still actually selling the most and you’re not like at the whim of, like, well, you know, you know Instagram decided to do this today with the algorithm, or, you know, tiktok’s getting banned or whatever it is.

Diane Lam: 17:53

So email marketing, I think, is one of the key tools that I always recommend that a business owner have, and I can’t think of a single business that doesn’t need or shouldn’t have an email marketing platform. But more than that, it can also double as a platform for you to be able to automate your onboarding and offboarding processes, to be able to, like, work, manage your clients and kind of see what they’ve purchased, if there are courses. It can be like a mini CRM if you want it to be, if that’s what you need, and so I think there’s a lot of power there because you can use it for multiple things and it also drives your marketing engine. So I will always say that, like, you will always need some sort of email marketing platform within your business. I think those are probably my top three. I mean, like taking money in a payment platform is kind of a given, but those are kind of my top three, like everyone needs.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 18:41

Yeah, I mean, though, I love those, those are really great non negotiables. And then back to your point about just not caring about the software but caring about the process and just people needing to remember, like, what’s the big result, because, ultimately, like you’re helping people find that freedom, and so to find that freedom, we got to attach things that help them get there, which just absolutely makes so much sense, wow. Which just absolutely makes so much sense, wow. So I guess I’ll end just kind of on one final question, just kind of as we wrap up our conversation in general, which is what? What? Give me an example of like a success story where you’re like this was like picture perfect, ideal, of like how someone was able to get their systems in place and get to that place where they had that freedom they wanted.

Diane Lam: 19:32

Yeah, of course. So, like I’ve had a lot of clients who were wanting to scale to agencies, right, like they were done for you. They wanted to build a bigger team, they wanted to be able to pitch bigger clients, and one of them actually came to me. They were a team and they’re like we’ve done some of the things. Like we recorded a bunch of Loom videos, we have some SOPs. Like we hired like a few VAs to help us with the admin tasks, but like I don’t know, it’s just not working. Like it doesn’t feel easier. Like I’m still working a lot. Like my partner is working all the time. Like like this is we’re working more than we work in corporate and it seems like we’re doing the right things right, like so we don’t know what’s wrong. We need someone to just tell us. We cannot like try and figure it out anymore. So with them, I really went through an assessment period where we were like, okay, well, what is what do you? What is the lay of the land here? What’s really the big gaps? And looking at that, I was like, oh well, you have tons of SOPs but they don’t actually produce the results that you want. So this is not how you market. Like this is not what you’re doing to actually generate your leads, so that is not usable in that way at all.

Diane Lam: 20:36

A lot of the work was still being done between, like a share drive, just between the two partners. It was like, well, if you have these VAs, this is why it’s taking you so long to prepare, like to get them to get work. You’re not using them because you’re saying, oh, I can just do it faster because you can’t get to the work. They cannot get to the work, so you need to move off of the share drive and put it somewhere where the vas also have access. And also the fact of the matter is you hired a bunch of general vas to help you when you’re really bogged down in the delivery of all of your work. I would probably refocus my hiring or my team structure to for people to help you really deliver these work your clients.

Diane Lam: 21:14

And they also had some big gaps within, like, their sales system where they’re like, yeah, we want to pitch bigger corporate clients, but like we don’t know what to use and like I mean we send this Google proposal, like we make it in Google Docs, and they’re like you know, like would you be cool if you got this and you know we were going to charge you, we wanted to double. They wanted to double their pricing, like 25, 30 K, like like. Well, I mean, it depends on your client, right? You’re telling me now that you are, that you probably you’re telling me that you probably, they probably, were not going to receive this. Very well, cause you’re, we should watch you about the google doc already, right? So, knowing those things, we went through and I recommended like a new sales process, one that included a more high-tech um proposaling software, something that would do the reminders for them. That was kind of in play, where they had a catalog of items they could just like. Once it was built, what they needed, it did the reminders for them. It pushed them to the sales platform when it was done, like all their invoicing within there.

Diane Lam: 22:09

Once that was built, they felt a lot better about pitching bigger clients. They reorg their team. They hired a bunch more of strategists and writers to help them because they were a writing agency. They did a lot of writing, content creation, messaging, work, things like that for a lot, of, I think, large and mid-sized businesses and they really wanted to move to those big corporations that have big names. So that really helped ease up the delivery and they went from like I mean, they were working like sometimes 60, 70 hours a week and they’re like, oh my God, I was like the first parent in the school pickup line. I’ve never been that way, so really being able to cut their workload in half.

Diane Lam: 22:48

And we worked together for three months and then we extended it for one month just to wrap things up and like give them some more like consulting support and they were on their own for two months. After six months later they were like they sent me a note. It was like, oh my god, we just closed and we just pitched and won our first corporate client and into the six-figure engagement. But where it was like, oh, now we are walking our talk, now like we feel really good about showing quadrupled our pricing and like or like, yeah, we can handle it Right. You show up a different way when you know like my business can back me up when I say that this service is worth, you know, a hundred K. It is worth it and it’s we have the process and the journey that we’re going to take you on. That matches that like. That’s really, really powerful. So that was like one of the best success stories I’ve ever had was like wow, you guys really took this to heart.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 23:38

You said you spent four months with them and they adapted it. And well, really three initially. I mean that’s just really fast adaption on their part. And then them being willing to take your guidance and act on it. And I’ve been there. Proposals are so time consuming, so to have something in place that really let them whip through it, I mean that’s huge.

Diane Lam: 23:57

So yeah, you have to build a lot and we put a lot into the build mode right, like in that framework, we built a lot of things. We brought in a lot of my own team members to like help, support and build out the foundation. But it was all about the planning right. They had no idea what was possible. You know it usually takes a little bit longer for owners to like really integrate all of this stuff, but they’re like no, we’re ready, like I trust I’m going to do the thing. I’m like okay, like I love it. I’m so proud of you guys. I’m super excited to see where you go next.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 24:27

Wow, very cool. Thank you for sharing, diane. Wow, I could go on with more questions because, wow, there’s just such a great conversation and systems need it so much and really running our businesses day to day and helping us get where we want to be. I want to end our conversation with a couple of quick lightning round questions. And first question I want to ask you. So you’ve been on the agency side of things, you’re now helping businesses create these systems and scale, but if you weren’t doing any of those things let’s say we were in an alternate universe what would Diane somewhere else be doing?

Diane Lam: 25:08

You know, I think that’s actually a good question In an alternate universe. If I would if I’d never had this background, I’d probably be a teacher teacher, not a math teacher, because I’m not good at math. Teacher of I think that that’s what I would be doing.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 25:39

Very cool. Second question is just about, like if you the you today, let’s just say who has all this amazing knowledge in how to run a business was talking to you when you first were starting, what would the you of today say to you of the past?

Diane Lam: 26:01

I would tell my past self to not just chase the money, to do what actually feels good and aligned and that you actually want to do good and aligned and that you actually want to do, because I spent a lot of my business years chasing the money and I burned out every single time. Right, I can do a lot of things and I can push it, I can hustle, I can grind and I can make a lot of money, but I ultimately ended up with businesses I didn’t like right and that’s what kind of led me to like. I’m on business iteration number five today, because if you want to be sustainable, you have to do something that you feel good about, that you feel aligned with, that you really want to do. And that’s the lesson I’m learning now, some lessons I like to learn the hard way.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 26:41

Yeah, all right. Well, we’ll end on that note. Diane, you have a free resource that everyone can get a hold of. Can you tell us a little bit about that resource?

Diane Lam: 26:50

Yeah. So I think that one of the first places I see a lot of business owners go is like they want to hire support and it makes sense right To get some lift in your day to day. They want to hire a virtual assistant, maybe an OPM. So I put together a what to pay your VA rates guide because I think like well, can I afford? It is often a big question. So every year I update this guide based off of what I see from people who apply in my business, based off of, like you know, a lot of the searches that my clients are bringing in, like you know, candidates they’re seeing, and then also like what I’m seeing, like as people advertise their services.

Diane Lam: 27:22

So this isn’t just like I pulled the numbers out of the air, but it is a good reference point for the top six most common types of VAs that I’ve seen. You know what is the pay range that you can expect. So like you can kind of know within your budget, like kind of where you’re landing. And I do break it down between US based and overseas based so that you also have that reference. And I just think it’s really helpful for anyone who’s considering hiring or is like nervous about making their first hire. It’s a good resource to know like, hey, where’s my budget? Am I in the right range? Is this like too far out of left field? And to give you to literally level set so you can go into the hiring process with some confidence that you’re like, yeah, I can do this and it’s going to work for me.

Sonja Crystal Williams: 28:02

Wow, that is a super useful resource and if anyone wants to grab it, go ahead and take a look at our description. We’ll have a link posted there where you can get access to it, as well as Diane’s social media links, so you can get in touch with her and reach out. If you want to chat with her one-on-one, all right. Well, thank you so much everyone for listening today. Thank you so much, diane, for being here. Until next time, everyone, bye, bye.